Angela McCourt 0:00
Let's get ready for some serious shift. This is a podcast shifting Inside Out hosted by your quantum shifter Angela McCourt, we are diving into ways to empower and enable a quantum shift. Inspiring topics hacks and guest speakers take us on a journey around authenticity, challenging status quo, personal power and living a purpose filled life.

So I have Penny Conway talking about her journey that she's actually on right now, which is really amazing. And the fact that she wanted to share this with all of you, because I know there are so many of you in the same place. And so hear about the vulnerability around making decisions and career changes that she never would have thought would be possible or would have been in the cards just a couple of years ago, and how her understanding of her misalignment to priorities and values really started to click in in making this decision. And it all came down to this feeling that something was not right. And realizing that she didn't want to do this anymore. I just love the perspective that she shares. It is so insightful on top of a lot of really good information that will be really good for you to hear and understand. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode. As you listen, you can find me on LinkedIn at Angie belts McCourt on Instagram at Angie underscore McCourt, or Twitter at Mccourty, and G. So without further ado, let's hear from Penny.

Come to shifting inside out, I am so grateful to have you on this episode. So to get us started, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself.

Penny Conway 2:02
So I'm honey Conway, from New Hampshire and I'm in partner marketing. I'm a wife, I'm a mom, and a whole slew of other things that we're going to get into today.

Angela McCourt 2:15
Very good. I love that introduction. Introductions are so important. So I love that you shared a big part of of who you are. So why don't we help the audience just to get to know you a little bit better. I have had the pleasure of getting to know you a couple of times. But we're just recently have been introduced, you reached out on LinkedIn. And we just started connecting basically through the podcast. And so I'm really excited to have you on here. Let's let's I just have like a few quick round questions just to kind of get us going. What is your morning ritual?

Penny Conway 2:48
So I love these questions because they've challenged me. So morning rituals, I am going to be completely honest and say that I do not have rituals. I for my entire life have been so envious of those people that are like I wake up, I go and I exercise. I sit and enjoy my coffee and I look out the window. And then my family wakes up and I take care of all those wonderful things. I'm like, how do people do that every single day of their life that seems impossible. So instead of rituals, I have like requirements, like things I have to get done in the morning. And whatever sort of way I get those things done in whatever order. It's okay, so i The weather's really nice to New Hampshire right now. So that means about five 530 It's late enough to go and take the dogs for a walk. So I might take the dogs for a walk in the morning, between that five o'clock and seven o'clock window and I have to get my daughter to either summer camp or school based on the year. So those are the two things I make sure that I have to do. And there's no ritual around them whatsoever.

Angela McCourt 4:01
That's called Going with the flow, the high

Penny Conway 4:04
flow in the morning, I I have always wished I could be one of those very ritualistic morning people. And I just can't be like, there'll be a couple of weeks I wake up and I exercise like really, really well. But then I'm bored and I need to move on to something different. So yeah, well, your

Angela McCourt 4:22
daughter is young too, right? So she still needs your help. And it's not she hasn't quite probably gotten to that stage of getting yourself ready in the morning and stuff like that too. So your mornings probably a bit unpredictable as far as

Penny Conway 4:38
that is actually a great way to put it. I do not have ritualistic mornings I have unpredictable. Every morning is unpredictable. So we'll go

Angela McCourt 4:48
we'll label it something right. Okay, how do you renew your energy?

Penny Conway 4:53
I again love that you asked me this question because what we're going to get into a lot of raw my store Are you today is I never really have taken the time or investment to actually renew my energy, or I thought things that the things that I thought were renewing me were probably more numbing. So like, Oh, I'm gonna drink a half a bottle of wine after I get out of work, I'm going to spend a half an hour on social media, I'm going to binge watch a Netflix series. And of course, after those things sometimes feel good, but afterwards, you never like, Oh, I'm ready to tackle something. And so I think over the past, it's probably been about a month now I've really been digging into, like, what are those things that renew me on a regular basis. Because that was the other fallacy I sort of was going with is like, Oh, I only needed something like this, maybe every six months, when really, it's like a daily thing right or a few times a week, I think of like charging our cell phones. And in order to renew or recharge your cell phone, you usually have to plug it in once a day, or once every other day, depending on your usage. So now I am enjoying the great outdoors in our very short window of warm weather. In New Hampshire. I say that a lot. But it's probably warm like six months out of the year, I just people think New Hampshire is like a cold northern place. So I spend a lot of time outside, I have taken up hiking, there's so many state parks near me. I tried to take the dogs out way more. And I I tilled a really big garden plot for the first time last year. And if anyone gardens, I have a 35 by 38 garden, which is way too big when you just start gardening, but I love being in the garden, like weeding, like literally getting in the weeds. And then watching things grow like that, after a couple hours of that in the day. Like I feel like Oh, like this. So like, I feel so accomplished, personally, and I feel relaxed. So just being outside right now is a focus for me in any of the activities that I can do I bring me joy and renew that energy.

Angela McCourt 7:18
Oh, that's so awesome. Yeah, I agree. I used to do the whole planet vacation or some kind of get away every quarter. Right? It was always based on work. Yeah, it's like a preempt to say, well, that's how I'll recharge. And in reality, those things that you can do on a daily basis. And as you're learning, you know how to how you're recharging your energy, it makes such a difference in the reality of being able to be resilient, and just being able to manage your energy better. And, and I think it's much more enjoyable to you know, instead of like getting to the point of total burnout before then you take a vacation. So I love that you're discovering and finding these new ways in a daily perspective. You know, yeah, it's really,

Penny Conway 8:05
it's really odd how we and we, we got a lot to go on today. But how we sort of think about like giving ourselves permission to relax and like recharge, and we do it by scheduling quarterly vacations, like once this quarter is over, Man, am I going to do something that makes me feel really good? Like, that is such flawed thinking that Yes. As professionals? Yeah. And I am, I am ready to be done with that way.

Angela McCourt 8:37
I think it was a great stepping stone from maybe where things used to be, you know, as far as when you think about prior to that, I mean, people were like, hardly ever really taking vacation. And then we got to this point, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna schedule vacation in a strategic way so that I can re Energize. But now it's like this. That was a stepping stone to get to giving ourselves permission to recharge regularly. Yeah. So I think that that's it. That's interesting as a bit of evolution that's been going on over the past, probably three to 10 years, depending on where you're at on that journey. Right? Yeah, very good. Okay, what is your guilty pleasure?

Penny Conway 9:17
Oh, this one's my easy one. I am such a and it is guilty. And it's like, it's actually embarrassing to but I'm hoping within your audience, they're all gonna go Oh, yes, me too. I just don't tell anybody about it. I I watch the Real Housewives. It is my guilty pleasure. It is my my I mean, I eat tons of junk food too, but it is like my mental junk food. Where it's just ridiculous. And they're ridiculous and their lives are ridiculous. But it's I consider it like the soap opera of my my generation. Like my mom watched days of our lives. I watch Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. So it's just like there There's no, there's no thinking that goes into it. And like that is a guilty pleasure for me. Like, my mind does not need to operate or think about anything while I'm doing it.

Angela McCourt 10:10
That's awesome. Okay, well, I am very excited to have you here today. And I want to just give you this space to be able to share your journey. And I think so much of it is in real time that people really appreciate it. Because I think the connection that the listeners are going to make to where you are, where you were, where you're trying to get to is so real for them. And so I am just thrilled to have you on the episode to share your journey. If you want to just get us started there. That would be fantastic.

Penny Conway 10:43
Yeah, absolutely. So I think probably the best place to start is sharing really how work when work became a very big part of my life. You know, when I was very little, my mom was the full time worker, the take on two jobs, she was a nurse, and then did you know a ton of other side gigs as a nurse. And so I always saw my mom working all the time. And I didn't really like that didn't mean anything to me at the time. Like, I don't think it was till I was much older, where I was like, Oh, wait, my mom did this. And now I'm doing this. But I always saw someone working really hard. And then when I was 14, I got my first job. And right at that same time was when I was attending a real school for the first time I was homeschooled all the way up until ninth grade. And so I like a social circles were new to me, groups of groups of people who are new to me, sort of the academic life cycle was new to me. And I remember starting in high school for the first time and taking a math assessment, and like testing at a second grade level. And I look back on that now. And I I think of it like that was the moment that was like, oh, school, school is not for you. Like school is not where you are going to excel. And even to this day, I make jokes. I went to dinner with my husband last night for his birthday. And he made a joke like to wanted the math for the tip. And he's like, I don't know why I'm asking you. And I was like, come on. I'm much better at math now than I used to be. But but very early on in that exposure, like, like the school setting wasn't where I was excelling, like friends and social wasn't where I was excelling. And I got my first job and, and it felt like, I don't know, like nothing I had ever experienced before. I there was an appreciation for what you did, like people were like, Oh, really good job with that. Or you were I was interacting with customers that really Oh, thank you so much for your help, you know, like, oh, walk you down to the aisle where you can find those nails for that nail gun like I worked at a hardware store. But I, the people that I worked with were older, I felt like I connected with them more. And very naturally, it just worked just felt like it had to play like I had a place at work and work gave me something that I wasn't getting anywhere else. Yeah. And that really carried through high school when I looked back on high school, and how many different jobs that I had. Sometimes I had two jobs at a time. When I was in right as I was about to start 10th grade I found out my parents couldn't afford to send me to it was a small private school and we're talking like maybe $1,500 a year but they they couldn't afford the tuition for whatever reason. And the school asked me if I wanted to work at the school to offset tuition. So again, like here's another cue that work to get you where you need to go it trumps school because it's actually paying for school. Like without work, you wouldn't be able to go to school. So I had a I was working at a hallmark store. I was the one so when I was working at school, I was the janitor, so everyday cleaned up after my peers. That's

Angela McCourt 14:34
an interest that was probably I was gonna say Interesting.

Penny Conway 14:37
Interesting. Not always super pleasant high school students, if anyone remembers and not the kindest people on the face of the planet. But I did that for three years. I started in 10th grade and I did it all the way through when I graduated. I think I stopped about maybe a month and a half before I graduated because I got another job I Um, so I always saw I was working at the school I had a job at Hallmark. And then I was always doing like side gigs like, do you need your lawn mowed? Do you need a fence painted? One point, there was a friend of mine at school that said to her mom, like, well, Penny will do anything for money. So why don't we see if she wants to come and dog sit for the weekend while we go on vacation? For a very much that became my identity very early on. And I loved it right? I'm not gonna complain. No, I mean, I didn't love work. But I always loved that feeling that I was producing something that I was getting paid for something. And that meant that at the end of high school, I wasn't so interested in college, it, college probably became the first thing that I was like, Oh, I have to go and do that. I just want to work though. So I work full time, I got my first full time job, like a month and a half before I graduated high school, and worked full time went to school part time. And just kept moving along that train. And, and I had a very, I'd say clear vision, not of the direction I like what I was going to do and where I was going to do it. But I knew that I was like, Alright, I have to, you know, be have this title, I need to get this kind of job, I need to manage people I need to finish, you know, school, I need to take all these steps so that one day I can be a CEO. Of what I don't love it. Okay, there's a goal of like, oh, let me become a vice president of something that is fantastic. So all of that, like not really having that. I felt like I didn't have the luxury to be like, Oh, what's my passion? What do I want to do, I was always just sort of like, wherever the job winds blue. That's where I ended up. And about 13 or 14 years ago, I landed a job that I was so in over my head in. And I started there in April, a boss from a former job had recruited me, they had there was some scuffle about, you know, recruiting someone from the company, you just left and legal and all that stuff. So that Job felt like there's a lot of pressure on the other end, like, oh, they went through all of this stuff. For me, I have to like, give them everything of me. And so October of that year, so it was April to October, I completely burnt myself out. I ended up leaving that job very quickly restarted my life up here in New Hampshire. And it was last year, I started to feel that same thing that I felt like 14 years ago. And what was different about the feeling this time was I loved what I did. Like I actually felt like I was making, you know, I wasn't just in the wind anymore. I was making calculated decisions based on what I like to do, on you know, what I was interested in. And I went back to school and I focused on school for a couple it, like maybe a year and a half finished my degree and oh my god, like everything is happening. Like the way it should still on the Work Path still, like 100% focus there. That was where my priority was. But something wasn't feeling right. Any more. And it was in December of last year, you know, whether it was illness or burnout, I crashed for like two weeks. In December after a very big year.

It was the year that like, you know when you have that vision of what it is you want to be and where you want to go and the title and the timeline. I had hit that. So I didn't my company for five years. And when I started I had a five year plan to end up in the Microsoft practice like a leader in our Microsoft practice. And five years hit and I was a leader in our Microsoft practice.

Angela McCourt 19:41
That's awesome.

Penny Conway 19:43
I like I did feel absolute pure joy like I and I think people saw that. That I just loved what I did. I loved you know what? The work I was doing every day. So again, I I'm getting that feeling like mid year, been about six months before my body finally was like, Nope, you're done. I was kind of going, Well, why do I feel this way, like I have this title, I'm actually, in my life plan, I feel a little bit ahead of schedule. Like, you know, COVID did a lot of damaging things. But I felt like it opened a lot of doors for me. You know, virtual, I was very comfortable, I had already had a platform in the virtual space. So it was like a real seamless transition. And I sort of stood out where some people faded with that, that adjustment. So I remember speaking to one of my bosses, he's like, alright, if you, you know, if you want to be a vice president, you need to go back to school and get your Masters. You need to manage larger teams, you need to do this, you need to do that. And I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to have that, like one school, I'm going to go back to school. Exactly combined. Seems like a lot of money and time that I don't want to spend. And I was managing a team of people at the same time that I you know, and I'm trying to, you've been a first time manager before a lot of people have, I was telling my husband, last thing, I'm like, God, I look back on that year, and I'm like, Oh, I just cringe at being a first time manager. But

Angela McCourt 21:28
especially in that time, you know, which was very challenging, you know, it's challenging for leaders.

Penny Conway 21:35
Yep, yep, exactly. Um, and so what I, what happened in sort of the December to what brings like today, so it's about six months is, when I got sick. It was really the first time that I proactively had to say to my company, I need time, like, I am not even talking like a leave of absence, like I need a week and a half to just feel better, and not work and not focus on this. And that gave me a lot of time to really try to figure out what this feeling was that I was having. Like, I'm where I want to be, I'm on track, like I'm a senior manager, and then I'm going to be a director, and I'm going to be VP. Again, I don't know of what, but that's my. And that is, you know, that was the sequence of events that I had seen in my whole like, work career over the past, you know, what do we say 23 years. And so what ended up happening is I went for a job, a job opened, and my boss was like, You should go, you should go for this, you know, I think it'd be a good idea. And I'm like, Okay, sure. You know, that's, that's the next title, man, you know, like, I'm there. And I interviewed for it. And the moment I had said, I was going to interview for it right before I got sick. And then when I came back, it was my first Monday back from being sick before Christmas holiday. And I sat down in my seat in my home office here. And I just said, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, and now I'm in a, like a really weird position where I'm going to go on Christmas break and then show up the day after an interview. And I went through the interview process. And I found out, you know, about a month after I interviewed that they weren't going to pick me for the role, which I'm so grateful that I didn't because that wasn't the direction I wanted to go. But now it was like, what again, why? What is this kneeling? Like, why don't I want to go in that direction? Why don't I want to do that? If I had all of these career aspirations, and they're panning out? Why don't I feel really great about it? Right? And I remember seeing an ad in my Facebook, that was like, alarming to me. It it was like, it might have been LinkedIn or Facebook. But all of a sudden, I started seeing these ads like, Oh, why female executives burnout. Oh, you How did you reach the top, like, I reached the top and I'm so lonely, and I'm so happy, haha. And I just was like, Okay, what? We got to figure we got to figure this out. And so I remember driving in the car with my husband one day was probably back in like October of last year. And I had said to him, like, how can I would make all these lists of things I needed to do around the house. All of the projects I had at work. And when I look at them on paper, I'm like, Oh, she barely got all that done. I should be able to do all those things. And I was saying to him, I'm like, Oh, I wish I'd gotten this done. I wish I had done that. I wish I had done this. And he goes, How much do you think you should be doing? Like, it's like, I've always, yeah, always make the comment. He's like, Oh, because you have extra. I'm like, I'm gonna be on the board. I'm gonna try to get on the board. It's Lucy school. And he's like, what's your problem? Why do you, like, try to add to what you're already doing when you aren't doing enough? And I remember saying to him, and I like cried on like the rest of the way home. I remember saying to him, like, how do you know what's enough? When you never feel like you're enough. Like, and I and he's, I sent it to him. And he was caught off guard a little bit. But his response to me was just You're, you're gonna miss everything. You're missing everything. Like you're so you're so invested in a project or you're so invested in work? You're so invent, like, that's all you see. That is your. And this is where he said it to me. And he goes work is your number one priority. Like, yeah,

your apps. Absolutely right. My, my husband came second, my daughter came third. I don't even think I placed anywhere, you know, back to what does renew what renews your energy, no clue, haven't spent any time doing that. Aside from the annual vacation, which stopped when my daughter was born, so now, like, almost five years of no renewing event. Wow. Um, so that was like, it's, like I said, that was before I got sick. That was before the job opportunity, like the potential job opportunity came. And I sat on that for a while, like for that that couple of months. And I went through that interview process with all of that in the back of my head. And it was in February, where I made a very, I won't say I made a very quick decision, because what is it that they say? Like, change happens very slowly, and then all at once. And yeah, that's what February felt like, for me, it was like one day, all of those conversations, all of those feelings, I had to come to terms with myself that my values were not aligned whatsoever with what where I was in life, like, my value was work when I was 14, because I needed to figure out how to get myself to point A to point B, I needed to pay for school, I need like all of these things. And now I'm in a position where I have a relatively really comfortable salary, my husband also has a really comfortable salary. And I am busting my ass like, I'm 14 years old, and have nothing behind me. And nothing in front of me yet. And so that just became like, it became reprioritization. Like a month. And I had to, I had to take a look back at what kind of mom I had been for the past four years. And it was not the kind of mom that I wanted to be. And I thought it was a pretty kick ass wife. But not not probably as great as I could have been. And I certainly was not doing myself myself any favors, whatsoever. So that led me to make the decision to leave my current employer and not for any major reason. Other than it represented to me a value system that was no longer going to drive with my, if I was going to reprioritize that was no longer going to jive. Because it meant putting in more hours. It meant conforming to this sort of world. And I don't mean any disrespect to to my former employer, but there are a lot of companies out there that the traditional setting is very male driven. It's a very masculine environment. And I I felt I felt it in my last role that I was like, Alright, to get to the next level, I'm gonna have to fight. I'm gonna have to fight for this. I'm gonna have to fight for the next one. And to prove that I am a worthy woman to be in those roles. And it it hit me one day where I was like, I don't that's not the fight I want anymore. Like I don't I want to move women along. I want to I want to I want to help women build a strong future but I don't want to be Fighting against something in order to do that. And it dawned on me like, and I spent so much time on LinkedIn, that's how I found you. That's how I find a lot of people. That's where I share a lot of my voice and you know what's going on in my head. But I started to notice all these companies, all of a sudden, it was like a light bulb, where I'm like, Oh, wait, like, I can go somewhere where this isn't a fight. And that doesn't need to be my job to like, fight against, like, the masculine, and I can just go somewhere that's like, No, it's cool. Ubu. And like, if you're really, if you're the best person for the job, we're going to put you in that role. And so I that's what I did, I left I started with a new company, I do not manage a team of people. And it is a company that really, I think, embraces, I hate the term work life balance, I really do. And I know that we're very, we're on the cusp of coming up with a new term as a society of people.

But that's part of it. That's in their mission that's in their value, like list of values. And that was really important to me. So it's like this week, my husband's you know, my husband's birthday was yesterday, my daughter's birthday is tomorrow, a my niece graduating on Friday, and I'm like, I need to work around all of those things. And they're like, go ahead. And like, that's the world we live in.

Angela McCourt 31:27
That's new, and they gave you permission, you know, which we need that.

Penny Conway 31:32
Yes, yes. And I do love to strive for a place where I don't need like, I don't need someone to tell me it's okay. To live my life outside of work. That is like I and I think everyone is I want everyone to get to that point at some point. Because my employer does not run my life. My employer is a part of my life. And I should be like, a member in your career, someone probably told you like, don't call and ask your boss for a sick day. Just tell them you're not coming in. And that was like mind blowing for me.

Angela McCourt 32:08
Yes. Can I stay home with my sick kid? Now you don't have to ask, don't ask.

Penny Conway 32:15
I know. But it's like, it's this. We're constantly looking for someone to give us permission. And I think this next phase of my life is like one i i want to stop asking for permission. But that's only one step like I, I want to not need permission, like to live. And I and I, it's that's an all facets of my life. Like sometimes I'm waiting for my husband's permission to do something. I'm waiting for works permission to do something. But I very, I, I have to tap More into me. And to realize that I though those things shouldn't be coming from other places, they have to be coming from me.

Angela McCourt 32:57
Yeah, that's so beautiful. What's interesting about the nudges that you're getting, you know, throughout this path, you know, probably starting a year ago, where it was like, okay, out here, I have all of these things that I've wanted, but something is like tugging at me saying, Hey, you're there's something going on here. And what's interesting about the masculine energy, and this is women and men all have this the masculine energy is how we've been surviving in the business world, since we've known it's what's helped us take action, create a plan, execute on things hold ourselves, you know, accountable from a sense of follow through and all of those pieces, but where we've become very strong in that masculine energy, women especially are getting this nudge, we're being tapped, we're being tapped from the inside because it doesn't feel right. Because what we're missing then is we're missing the connection, we're missing the collaboration, we're missing the flow, that's natural within the feminine energy, which men have as well. And it's interesting because these types of, of energy skills and qualities are going to be what the leaders of the future need to have. And so this is evolution that's going on, this is evolution that's been happening for you. And the thing, you don't want us to be sitting in that masculine energy all the time. And that's the change and the shift that I've seen in you. Even the nurturing, you know, being there with family being there with your daughter and your husband, you know, it's a different energy that you're sitting in.

Penny Conway 34:31
Yeah, no, it's it's such a good point. Because I I, I think about I think about how much I have focused on work. And I think the last time we talked I I, it's, this is changing so much in real time, like two weeks ago, I was saying I went from managing people back to being an individual contributor. And over the past two weeks, I've spent a lot of time thinking about that individual contributor because in in that traditional work setting, it's like, let me do as much as I possibly can to contribute individually to a project to something that is purely mine to show that I can do this next job. And what I have learned in my new role in my new company, and God, is it a learning curve? Like this is not easy, by the way, like, I know a lot of people are chasing culture right now. But going from that very traditional setting to this very, I'd say progressive and future forward thinking setting is great. But it also like you have to unlearn a lot.

Angela McCourt 35:42
Yes, you have to remove a lot of blocks that you you were conditioned and programmed with.

Penny Conway 35:46
Yes, and let me tell you individual contributor is one of them. Because in a like a future forward, future creating company and like a remote work remote first working environment, it's collaboration, you are not an individual contributor, you are a collaborator.

Angela McCourt 36:05
Beautiful, yes.

Penny Conway 36:06
Yeah. It it's like it dawned on me in the past couple of weeks, I was like really struggling with like learning process and understanding who's who and like, in what order do I do these things. And then through like, forcing my way through learning the process, I just kind of stopped and said, You're trying to approach this the way that you would have approached it, like a year ago, which is, I need to know the process. So I can work around the process, so I can get my individual job done quicker. That was, that was my approach. And now I'm like, oh, I need to like spend time with these people in the company that are doing this really well really take the time to learn from them. And then bring us all together to say how can we be more efficient in this process? And how can we build this bigger thing together, like it is a we think that way, like we say words that that make us think that we are that way. But in practice, it's really difficult. So that would be my like little nugget of advice for anyone that's like I'm chasing culture and I'm, I'm looking for this I'm looking for like a technology company that's moving fast. And you know, pivoting quick, you got some soft skills, you're probably going to have to work on if you have been in this old environment for a while. And it's not a bad thing. It's it's pure growth, which is wonderful and beautiful. But that is definitely like individual contributor, that is not a term we use in the future.

Angela McCourt 37:41
The other thing too, is if you think about, you know, this, this whole approach of shifting culture, and the blocks, what other blocks have, you had to overcome, you know, from a permission or an approval or a, you know, validation perspective.

Penny Conway 37:58
Um, I would say, being really honest and transparent about who I am at work. And I'll, I'll say I have a little bit, it's a blessing and a curse, like, I am very active on LinkedIn. So I will interact with people at my company, that have caught me on LinkedIn before they interact with me, or I will have a feeling about work or who I am at work, and I'll share those feelings. And then you like, get in a room with people that know that that's like your inner feeling, which is a really like, strange but wonderful thing at the same time. But we have a process where at the end of every week, we have to do a check in. And it's like you write notes about your week, like how are you feeling this week? What was your workload this week, and it it's in addition to a one on one, it's almost like the material to use on with a one on one with your manager. And in my old working life, I would hop on a one on one with my boss, and he would say pending, how's everything going? And I'd say pretty good. Pretty good. Like, we're you can see me on camera and you know, the look like fantastic. Like, I just spent the last week ramping myself up of all the things I was going to bring to you this one on one but now I'm not going to say a word about how I'm feeling or all of this. I made a joke. I cried with my current boss recently, and I made it like three months. So that's pretty good for me. But after I was done crying and you said I never cry, I take so much for me to cry. And I was talking to a friend after I was like I don't know why I say that. I cry all the time. Like but I'm so used to saying like, that's not who I am. But I would get to one on ones in my old working life and put on this front. Like everything's really good. I have everything under control. I'm not Nothing to worry about. And then they'd say Is there anything I can do to help and I would go just you knowing, just you having visibility and like air cover is enough. In my new environment where I fill out this check in, I am able to actually because writing is my medium, I am open and I am honest, I am really struggling with process. I am really struggling like this is what's tough about remote work is that you don't at your fingertips, know who to go to and ask a question and get an answer. And I just say like, I feel weak here I feel like I'm one thing I said this past week is like, I'm feel like I'm always forgetting something. And I usually am always forget, like the details, I made a joke to someone this morning, like detail oriented probably won't be in my resume anymore, because I forget the little details, but the little details drive me, like make me feel like I'm doing something really bad. That has been a huge thing that I had to get over is like the never being able to say that I'm not picking something up, or I don't understand something I used to spend, like I was the Microsoft Alliance manager, I used to spend hours researching cloud architecture. So I could have a conversation about something, even though I never needed to know any of that. But it's like the perception that someone would think that I don't know enough, or I'm not doing enough or not enough, always was over my head. So having this sort of tool in place. And I think a lot of like, I used to like poopoo, the idea of like, Oh, you do check, like it's a weekly summary of what you're doing. But it's so important because it just is forcing me without needing to get the immediate reaction or worry about crying or get nervous and change my like, oh, I don't want you to think I can handle anything. And my boss wrote, actually, this past week, she's like, Thank you for being so honest with me. Because your honesty helps me help you can figure out where we need to focus on. So that's been like a wall I've had to take down as. And she also was like, remember, kind of you're human. And you've only worked here for four months. So can you give yourself a break?

Angela McCourt 42:32
It's interesting, because I have a lot of women who basically will say, I am afraid to speak up about that I'm overwhelmed or that I need some help with something because I'm afraid it look, I look bad. I don't know what I'm doing. And it's interesting, because I think a lot of times we do hide behind everything's fine. And then not using our resources and support. And so do you have any suggestions or advice for people who are struggling with that, especially now that you've seen the other side of that world?

Penny Conway 43:00
Yeah, it kind of goes back to that statement? Like how do you know you're doing enough if you never feel like you are enough is. And I still do it sometimes sometimes of like, let me just keep taking on projects. To show that I'm providing value, I think like a big piece of advice is you have to get realistic about how much time you actually have to work. That has been a huge barrier in my life in general is one because it was so ingrained in me to work all the time. But my husband did something really clever. It's like not life. It's not like genius or anything but he goes funny. Like you should sleep eight hours, and you should work eight hours. And then you should have eight hours to do whatever the hell it is that you want to do. But in order to like figure out what you do in those eight hours, you need to know how much time things take. And then I felt like so vindicated when Brene Brown and her daring to lead books tells a story about like time management, she wants to like plant a garden and paint the fence before like fit company comes for dinner. And that's and her husband told her like Brene you're like, you're not a good estimator of time, like how long it takes to do things. And that I think is like the advice and I'm working on it. I'm still not good at it. But if you have eight hours in a day to work, you can't fill it with 20 hours worth of work. Because if you do, you will always feel like you are not doing enough. But you've set the like an incredibly unrealistic expectation for your own time. Right like I put together it sounds silly but like this, these are like the very granular things that I think people have to look at is I put together a need to do a PowerPoint present. dictation for a panel. For some, like our company is participating in a panel, I volunteered to do the PowerPoint presentation. And if people are like me, they go, oh, a PowerPoint, I can bang that buddy out in like 30 minutes, like no problem, PowerPoint, super easy. That PowerPoint took me two and a half to three hours to do. But when you say that out loud, like, oh, I need to do that PowerPoint, and that's going to take me three hours. So many women, and I'm sure men too, would go, I don't want anybody to know, it took me three hours to do a PowerPoint. But it's the research for the PowerPoint, it's finding the images for the PowerPoint, it's formatting it it's making it consumable. It's timing it, it's putting notes in, like, that's not a 30 minute job. And so if I say I'm going to do three PowerPoints, I probably need nine hours, not 30 minutes. So that is my like piece of advice is if like you feel overwhelmed, and you're afraid to say that you feel overwhelmed, or that you're afraid that you don't, someone will think you're not doing enough or you don't know enough, like go back to like and really evaluate how much have you taken on? And is it even physically possible to get it done in the time that you think you can get it done in because I actually think a lot of my like anxiety and my stress about work is well, definitely the environment contributes to it, I have put unrealistic expectations on myself. Not even from a performance standpoint, but just like, I'm going to do all these things. But there's only time to do three of all of those things. And I spend more time beating myself up for what was impossible to get done, then congratulating myself for what I could get done. That's, that's huge. And that is a I am in that place where I'm trying to figure that out. But that's the biggest piece for me is you're human, you're not a machine, you can only get so much done.

Angela McCourt 47:16
So what about your mention of identity and work? Like? What does that mean to you? And how have you been able to kind of work through that with this whole transition as well, like what has been the shift that you've seen in that?

Penny Conway 47:32
Yeah, this is a i This is another one I'm in the thick of you know, when I say I finally had that realization that I have not been the mom that I wanted to be like a very clear example was I remember doing a post about this on LinkedIn, my daughter's room is a nightmare. Like there's toys everywhere. And I'm like, let's see clean your room. Let's see clean your room. Let's see in your room. And she's she just she's turned five tomorrow. Like I should not be like dictating that a four year old clean their room. But she said to me one day, she's like, I don't know how like, and it was like this, like she was so frustrated with me. And I was like, why is your room always? Why can't you clean your room and she's like, I don't know how you never, you never showed me you never taught me. And I just sort of like it stopped me dead in my tracks. Because as a manager at the time. Like, if I needed someone on my team to do something, I would show them either how to do it or where they need to go to learn how to do it or who they need to talk to. And when it came to being a mom, I just did not invest myself there that was not part of my identity. Being a mom was you know, I from the very moment I got pregnant, I was like, Oh, well, I'm gonna take three months off, because that's what I'm supposed to do. That's what my short term disability will cover. And I'm gonna come back to work and that kid's gonna be in daycare, and I don't have a inkling of a desire to be a stay at home mom. That was my identity because I wanted to show that I could show up for work no matter what. And not that I want to be a stay at home mom, I still don't think that's my calling in life. But I found myself last year while I was so invested in my job while I reached this level I always wanted to be I was actively ignoring my family. By working like I was making the conscious decision to escape my other life and dive into work. So it's like, if I'm feeling you know, my husband and I have a little argument or I'm annoyed the fact that my daughter is always around. What am I going to do? I'm going to double down on work. If life a family life feels out of control I'm gonna double down here, and I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take on more to prove to you that no matter if my life is falling apart, I am going to show up here and be the best employee I possibly can be. And work became not only like a distraction from my life, but like you said, an escape, it was because who's gonna argue with me that I'm gonna like spend more time working than with my family who's gonna argue no, with that, like, this is how we pay the bills. This is how we bought our house. This is it's a necessary thing that I have to do. But I noticed that I end glaringly and it's probably because my daughter just was getting older and could communicate back to me that I was making a decision to not spend time with her so I could be working. That was my safe space. That's who I was, I do not identify as a mom, I do not identify as a wife. And that like, I've been really fortunate, like, I have a great husband and I have a great daughter and have a great family. But that's not sustainable. For the next phase of my life, my daughter is going to be five there's going to be dance recitals, there's going to be practices, there's going to be sick days, there's going to be so much that I don't want to miss, like my husband said, You're gonna miss it all like I don't, I feel like I missed the first four years of my daughter's life, I really, I really do. And it's something I'm coming to terms with. But the only way I can come to terms with it is by not continuing to escape being a mom. So I can show up really well at work. Because

my boss isn't going to be at my daughter's high school graduation I am. And that is that's really a tough one for me. And that's where back to the very it's kind of coming full circle back to the beginning, when I watched how my mom worked. Like, it wasn't until this point in my life that I look back and I go, where was my mom, not in a bad way. But like, I don't remember my mom and my child. Like, there. And I don't want my daughter to do that, to have that feeling. Especially considering as far as I'm concerned, my home is going to be where I work for the long haul. I have shown myself that it is physically possible for me to disconnect from my home life and immerse myself in work. So locations, not the thing to like work is not physically taking me away, it's mentally taking me away. And that is a deep journey that I am in right now. Because I still and you would rather do a PowerPoint presentation, then sit on the floor and play Barbies any day of the week. I have to like for I'm really good being task oriented, like I manage my daughter, like she's a task, you got to wake up, I'm going to make your lunch, we're going to get you out the door, you're going to come home, you're going to play bikes, and then you're going to do this. Like I move her through her day, but I'm not really having any true meaningful connection with her because I'm managing her I'm not raising her. So that has been that has been a big change. And I wish I could give pointers on that. Because, one, I hope there's not so many women that are doing that. But I'm sure there's a million that are just so there's probably so much shame around the concept of I am actively choosing to work over choosing to be a mom. But maybe next time we talk, I'll say here's how I've turned this around. And I'm a phenomenal mom and I have a deep connection with my daughter.

Angela McCourt 54:02
Yes, and I definitely want to follow your journey because I think that it's important, as you know, we give access to people sharing their stories like this, that it's real, and it does evolve and you don't know where it's gonna go. Right. So I don't think so definitely have you on again, for sure.

Penny Conway 54:19
Yeah, it's, um, there's the world. Like, we know the world has changed, undoubtedly, but I will not use stupid phrases like our, you know, our new normal and all of that. But we can't even begin to think of what five years from now is going to look like. And when I think back five, six years, that's all I was doing is like, here's what I'm going to do in five years. Here's what I'm going to do in 10 years. Like I said, I hear that I'm going to be a CEO of something. It's just sort of dawned on me and I consider myself fortunate and I have worked so hard to get to this point where it's like I'm not going to predict what the next three, or four or five years is going to be I'm not going to predict what title I'm going to have or what responsibilities I'm going to be doing. The world is changing so fast that we can't even fathom what work is going to look like in three to five years. I think these types of journeys, these types of like transformations, more of us need to be talking about it, because that is how we are going to really change the working world. Yes, is I am a human being. And what I do for work sustains my life. That's it. Like I can feel good about it, I can get satisfaction, I can be proud of what I do. But it should not be what rules us anymore. It is it's crazy to me like I'm not to go off on a tangent, but I saw a post on LinkedIn that was like, the 40 hour workweek was created, when there was only like when families could live on one income, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, actually, no, the the 40 hour workweek came as a regulation because worker workplaces and employers were so abusive, and terrible to their employees that a law went in place saying you cannot keep people here for longer than 40 hours. And if you do, you have to compensate them appropriately and give them these breaks. Like the 40 hour workweek wasn't just like created to like support. It was put in place to protect us from really abusive practices in the employment world. And to think that like, that is like anything, which I feel like nothing's changed since like the 40 hour work week went into place. But like I see in the future, like project based work, your life is your work is revolving around your life. Like the new terms of asynchronous communication, and global teams like that is what I get really excited about, because those are the environments and the cultures that are going to allow people like me, and you and so many other men and women to finally, like really not feel like they are like trapped in a vicious circle of my work rules my life. And I have no time for anything else. Yeah,

Angela McCourt 57:29
I think also, one of the things that people are starting to realize, as they've had more flexible schedules, they're like, Hmm, I'm actually more productive in the morning. Hmm, I'm actually more I make better decisions in the afternoon. Wow, I love creativity at nighttime. Like, that's when I can get my spark, or really, super early in the morning. And so like, the workday itself is so not productive, because we're being forced to do whatever all day long.

Penny Conway 57:56
Right? Right. And, and I love that I love that you say that, because it's so it's so true. There is like, a period of time during the day where it's like, I don't care what task you've got, like, my brain just won't function at certain times of the day, or if I the big one for me. And I I mean, I used to be, I wish I'd taken a snapshot of my calendar at one point I would use to be booked for solid eight hours a day, often double booked, where it's like, I'd pop into a meeting and be like, do you guys need me here? No. Okay, I'm gonna go to this other one. i Right now on my calendar, I know more than three hours am I sitting and working? I just I don't, I don't work. Like my brain will stop. After three hours of continuous work, I'll get distracted. I'll set and then those feelings again of like, Oh, you're so lazy. Oh, you never get anything like those start creeping in. And that's like, as soon as I start to feel those now I try to be like, just get up and go do something. I'll go and do something in the garden. Go and take the dogs for a walk. You are not a loser. You just work for three hours, honey, like you're solid. Yeah, like you're like get up and move your body get up and have a glass of water like those things are so small. But that's like going to be the biggest shift for all of us to get ourselves out of that. I gotta sit here for eight hours and be available. It's more of like you said, like, I can get all of my administrative tasks done really early in the morning and feel really good about it. In the evening time after I put the kids to bed and my wheels start turning and I get a really good idea. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna go and do that. That's how I see my future. I'm not there yet. I still sometimes like sit for eight hours like at the ready. But it's an evolution and I think it's really exciting.

Angela McCourt 59:53
Yeah, it's gonna be really interesting for sure, but I love the fact that you're at this point where you're like I'm not putting labels and titles Then timelines on things. Because I have no idea what it's going to be in the future, the possibilities that can happen for you is something you never even thought of possibility wise.

Penny Conway 1:00:11
Right? Right. I never three years ago, I never would have considered myself sitting here, not in a million years. And so just to even hypothesize like, Oh, here's where I'm going to be doing just sounds silly. Now, after a pandemic, and even before that was probably very true, but the pandemic was like a very glaring. See, life will change in a moment for all of you. And there's nothing you can do about it. And I even think now, like, I think the last time we talked, I might have even said to you, like, oh, I, like still want to be a CEO, I still want to be a VP. I was driving around and drop lunch off for my husband. And I was driving back home. And I was like, Maybe I don't want to be a CEO. Maybe I don't want to be a VP. Like, I kind of like what I'm doing now. And I like creating, and why do I need? If I have an income that is supporting my financial goals and my family? Why do I necessarily need to be a CEO of anything but myself?

Angela McCourt 1:01:14
So true, it's so true. And I think that's where a lot of these people who have gotten up to those levels, and they're like, this didn't fulfill me, like I strove, I strive so hard. I worked so hard, but I'm not fulfilled. This isn't what made me happy is making me happy. Like, this isn't the thing I thought it would be? Yeah.

Penny Conway 1:01:33
Like, we met with our, when I had my daughter five, five years ago, like we decided to get serious about like, like planning for the future, and finances and all of that. And I asked him, the last time we were together, I was like, How much do I need to save in order to like, what's a realistic time I can retire? Like, my husband and I are nine years apart, which means he's gonna retire much earlier than me. But that also doesn't mean that I want to be like, wrapped up in this work I can't like free myself from and he gave us a plan back and he's like, save this much money. And in 15 years, you both can retire. And Penny, you can go and do something like consulting or do you know, have, you know, a stream of income? And that made it very real? Like 15? Yeah, like, I've been working for 20. Room? Yeah, yeah, I have less time to go than I've put in and like, it just doesn't seem possible. That became like, the title wasn't the goal anymore. It doesn't mean if I'm a CEO, I'm going to hit all of my financial goals. I have, I have a goal. And whatever it gets me to that goal is going to be what I do. And the goal is not work. That's I think the most. It's like the goal is to stop working. So with that, it's sort of like that shift in that thinking is my goal is not be a VP or CEO. My goal is what my goal is to retire in 15 years, what do I need to do in order to do that safely, effectively, and make sure that we can support ourselves? And that's it. And that's all I care about? Whatever Title I have. I don't care. That's so

Angela McCourt 1:03:21
awesome. Well, thank you so much. That was really insightful. And I appreciate you sharing your journey with us. Real quick, do you have any shares that you'd like to share with everyone, including companies, nonprofits, books, courses, anything like that?

Penny Conway 1:03:35
Yeah, I always so I have a couple of books that I recommend right now. I've read them through a Momose through them both twice. The first one is atomic habits by James clear, and that I think, if I could pinpoint it, and I my bought my old boss, if he ever listens to this will probably cringe because I started talking about atomic habits a lot. And I think that was part of my turning. But his whole premise is is about habits of course, but figuring out who you want to be what kind of person you want to be and then building habits to get you to that point. And that goes back to like not having a morning ritual like I, I will not have a sequential bunch of habits in the morning because that's just not important to who I want to be. And then the other one is Untamed by Glennon Doyle, I just read that and I am obsessed. She's such a brilliant storyteller. But also there are so many nuggets in that book that like I would stop I listened to it a lot when I was gardening, and I'd like stop and I'd rewind it and I listened to it again. I'm like, Ah, it's just all about like stepping into like, knowing who you are and listening to you and forgetting all of this other nonsense that like fills your head all the time. So those are my book recommendations. And then I love giving a plug to my company, not just because I work there, but I really love what they do. It's a company called globalization partners. And to summarize it, it's like they democratize, democratize opportunity for everyone across the globe. So if some of the really sweet stories we've heard is like, if someone worked in the United States and their wife, you know, was from France, and she wanted to go back and live in France, or needed to go back, and her husband wants to go with her, and his company wants to retain him, but doesn't have an office in France, where an employer of record that would hire him on their behalf. So he could go there and live with his wife and be wonderful and happy and maintain his job. So building a remote work world is on my agenda, and they are a tool to do that to hire anybody, anywhere across the globe in minutes, is really exciting work to be a part of.

Angela McCourt 1:06:07
That's really awesome. I just love that. And I will put the website if you want to send that to me. I'll put the website in the show notes, as well as your LinkedIn address so folks can reach out to you.

Penny Conway 1:06:17
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on. I love chatting with you. I love your podcast. And I just am so grateful for the opportunity.

Angela McCourt 1:06:27
Well, I thank you Penny, because I feel like your story has been probably one of the biggest hits so far that we've had on the podcast because it's just so real. And it's such real time, and so vulnerable. And I just appreciate you showing up in that way for everyone. So thank you. It was definitely very insightful. And I appreciate it too, because I know you're very busy. And we've spent some time together here. So thank you. If you liked this episode, you can tweet at McCourt, Angie and let me know and if you really want to say thank you please leave a review on Apple podcasts. Thank you so much Penny.

Penny Conway 1:06:59
Thanks, Angie.